Psychological Types Then and Now: The Relevance and Application of Jung's Theory

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00:02:55 so and then after that

00:03:31 all right how's it how's it looking you see this no no do you uh do you have the website is it open do you see the stream okay so you see in the Stream you can hear audio excellent all right well that's it um just to maximize the uh browser I guess maximize the

00:04:03 image okay excellent so that's it you can come on down

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00:06:05 [Music] micone the we switch it to each each time and then I'll put this one put one on you one on Bruce and so that when you speak uh you be in the recording on the stream and the stream's live and it's on the other I only need to speak at the

00:06:39 very beginning okay so we'll you up then we're going to have a series of introducers for present hi are you a mic that one can Gra and this does it up but we can

00:07:10 people okay I think for myself I'm going to try to my remarks we can decide after it's welcome and thankful Ariel be Isel arel

00:08:20 I'm not sure for the introduction it's not just as easy for us to go off to the microphon on yeah

00:08:58 okay yeah I there will be

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00:42:48 hand okay good morning everybody and welcome to have you all here old friends and new good to see you apologize for the

00:43:19 microphone um I just want to thank a few people before we get started thank you okay I want to thank the JP development committee who been working very hard for a long time many deta took to bring this conference together also John B of San Francisco whose idea this collaboration

00:43:51 was he's a fon scholar and author of book at the core of this conf today also thanks to Adam fry for helping to sheer our committee through deorations and special thanks to

00:44:21 thanks for helping us take this venue together and now I'm going to [Applause] good morning welcome um as a member of the UN psychoanalytic Association I've had the great pleasure in the past to work with IO aosta the jpa and the NYU art and arts

00:44:54 professions departments put on the 4 Day art in the city conference a few years ago and so she's our great hostess and certainly we're extremely grateful um as a member of the Helix Center I would like to thank Helix for all their help in um producing and supporting this event their Flyers of the Helix programs on the table and then

00:45:25 as a member of the fil a uh which is working toward the publication of all the unpublished works along with as I will say in a moment the Airs of Yung um I have had the great pleasure of having contact with and working with Thomas Fischer and also with the filon scholars who were here um eron fader Craig Stevenson and John B types book so

00:46:00 um you can imagine what it's like to be the great grandson of young and Emy Yong CG Yong and EM Yong when we all think they belong to us and really they the um responsibility of the literary estate is really one that belongs to the family and Thomas has been most gracious ever since he's taken over as director of the foundation of the works of

00:46:30 C Thomas Fisher PhD studied history political science public and international law at the universities of Zurich in Brussels he's the director of the foundation of the works of CG Yung Zurich established by the community of theirs to maintain and develop the literary and artistic estate of Carl and his wife rash the Foundation manages the intellectual property rights to this

00:47:00 Heritage and strives to foster a scholarly publication of their works and as I mentioned he is the great grandson of CG and Emma Young Thomas we're so pleased you're he for this occasion thank you and so he's going to say a few words [Applause]

00:47:47 so welcome good morning it's a pleasure to be here Le and the jpa thank you very much for the invitation and the opportunity to to say a few words about the foundation of the works of CG um but before that let me congratulate you to putting together this uh conference I think it's a great event and wonderful occasion to talk about uh this publication that came out a year ago I think John and have been uh

00:48:21 working for a long time on it and uh it's a wonderfully achieved Edition uh and I hope most of you find it an interesting read if you get a chance to dip in it um so for the foundation maybe it is important to mention because you refer to the family uh the family the descendants of Y they transferred their rights author's rights

00:48:54 into the foundation in 2007 and formally formally we are totally independent of the family today the whole board is uh currently set up with family M um nevertheless then nevertheless this makes a working much easier taking decisions uh working with our partners uh Fon Foundation editors Publishers the archives and that is sort of the network

00:49:24 we play a certain roll in uh we play that role because there's the copyrights in your worth and copyrights at least in Europe and the United States uh they still lost for 70 years over the author's death so that's the main reason why we have a say in all this uh of course there's a few more reasons and not the least access to material the B of material has been deposited to the university or of the Technical University in Zurich where

00:49:55 teaching but still there remains uh material with the closer family AR any private possession scattered all around and what we are trying among other things is is uh keeping track of where things ended up and bringing this into new Publications and uh for example Craig Stevenson who is here he just finished this wonderful Edition on on a a lecture of Y U on the the French poet writer shal and

00:50:28 we were able just by she luck I to say to find uh minutes of of the discussion that has been taking place after he gave the lecture and this was a wonderful piece to discover and it was partly because cig was working on this Edition uh we when uh sing through some of the materials we actually were became aware that this belongs to that lecture and you know like this is what we try among other things add the pieces together um

00:50:58 making new projects worthwhile we are a non for-profit organization uh we may sound like much but I'm basically the one person working uh and not a full time uh I do have a parttime assistant because I privately resign in Canada these days uh so there's someone is z who assisting twice a week and like that's uh we set up and then obviously it depends on on finding good partners competent people who are able actually to make the additions when

00:51:29 it comes to Publications um so yeah the the young schm Le we're talking about today they're a very good example such collaboration and uh I I'd uh maybe Beverly yesterday asked me also to say maybe something about ongoing projects and new project because uh there's the fair question so of the the red book uh what else is there to be published and and again here

00:52:02 the the question of the psychological types is a very good example so collected works have been published that's the the main stack of manuscripts that he wrote then there's lots of letters you most of you are aware there's a three two volumes in English on the letters by own they contain about 3,000 letters I think in the archives in Zurich alone there something like 35,000 letters not all of them are worth publishing of course but still it's

00:52:33 there's a lot and it becomes interesting then when you find the counterparts of the letters as in this case uh where you see Yung engaging in a discussion and hopefully additional uh material eventually contextualizing the whole thing and that makes for a a new uh interesting publication this is a wor project other things the Black Books the raw material to the the red book they are currently being edited by son

00:53:05 shamani again with the filon foundation we're also working uh with uh with independent Scholars uh currently working with a young French scholar who is planning an edition of of letters uh in Yad with frankophone speaking colleagues and people uh so I'm trying to help him to make the selection directing him to additional people he's very good in you know like he came up with the project and then first of all

00:53:37 we need to take a decision whether we support this after all at one point we have to release the material for of uh for for publication but then we're trying to like Foster his work and and being of help in making this coming to freshen uh in the end also an important point is finding a publisher Princeton University press who is now again very active since philemon's involvement The Works of young and we're very grateful

00:54:07 for that um yeah so maybe uh a last point to mention here is authentification of the material that's an important step so what H uh what now happens sometimes that someone shows up and says like I found this document in an archive and I think it's you know maybe three pages and I think it's something Yung presented somewhere and then we try and the first step is

00:54:39 like please send us a copy and we try to figure out whether this is really young or whether these are notes on the talk that he gave and uh if that step is taken then you may start to discuss does this belong to something bigger and is it worthwhile going into public editorial project or does it fit in with something going on elsewhere also uh if new primary source material shows up we try and and someone is like rather than it is auctioned we Tred to bring it into

00:55:09 the university archives so we're trying to link so I had this case last year also in France in the papers of a yung's first French translator they turned up an original German manuscript something that's been published in the collective works but the original manuscript was no longer available so this turned up and then we sort of acted as an intermediary between the archives who finally bought this paper from uh these people which was a a wonderful thing so sort of

00:55:39 completeness also of the primary source material uh certainly is important to us all right I'll leave it at that uh just a few words on on the publication uh itself um so most of you are aware this is this is uh the ex change of letters that is at the basis of of of yung's book psychological types published in 1921 and uh Yung has explicitly acknowledged shmid gon's role and contribution to the to the development

00:56:11 of his manuscript in the introduction to the book I think it is worth pointing out that this is not just one of quite a big number of substantial correspondences in the young archive uh this is really a founding document of the discipline of analytical psychology and the timing is important here so this uh occurs uh this correspondence between Yung and shmid giz occurs in mostly in

00:56:43 the summer 1915 and Yung at the time is working in the black books and he takes sort of in Hiatus this this takes place so while working on his inner side he also engages in in in uh in this scholly exchange but where they actually it's an exercise in in defining a new terminology and a new Theory so uh and the two actually then result in what we now term analytical

00:57:14 psychology uh it is also the time that the uh psychological Club in zircus is founded 1916 so that is the first group where Yung sort of uh has interaction with his own disciplines uh so to speak uh he around that time he writes the sepm salmonis morus which can be seen as a personal foundation stone of Y to the making of

00:57:44 analytical psychology it is around that time Yung drops some of the Freudian terminology from his works uh so it's really it's really him coming into his own school so to be uh so to speak uh and this is in my view the significance among other things of this document here or this publication good uh I'll leave it at that thank you very much thank you for

00:58:16 the opportunity to be here today to uh present a few remarks on our foundation and uh I'm very much looking forward to the presentations today and I would like to thank thank the editors all editors with filon and filimon uh today again for their wonderful work they're doing for young and for keeping his literary estate alive thank you thank you so much

00:58:48 Thomas we sold out uh seeds about two weeks ago and so what we're is videoing this day and so when we get to the question and answer period please remember that anything that you say will be on YouTube forever so don't say anything you don't want the world to know so on to our next speaker and Bruce

00:59:19 har so it is my pleasure and honor to introduce Ern Lether to you uh he is uh has a PhD in Psychology is a senior research scholar at the University College London and a senior editor of the foman foundation where he is engaged

00:59:50 in the translation and publication of the complete works of CG yon he has written edited Ed and translated more than 200 Publications on the history Theory and technique of psychoanalysis and analytical psychology among others he is the chief editor of the Freud fenzi correspondence editor of the correspondence of Sigman Freud and Carl Abraham co-editor and translator of the question of psychological types and the English translator of yong's seminar

01:00:20 children's dreams a collection of selected essays psychoanalytic affiliations mapping the psychoanalytic movement will appear in early 2015 with carac books it's my pleasure to introduce [Applause]

01:00:50 AR okay could you start the slid share please thank you Bruce hello can you hear me that's good okay young emphasized time and again throughout his writings letters seminaries interviews that he was not a

01:01:24 philosopher but an empiricist here is only a small selection of quotes I won't uh read all those quotes you can look for yourself I'm not a philosopher I'm an empiricist uh I'm an empiricist not a philosopher Etc next one and that's only a selection of those quotes so these are not isolated statements but you'll find them

01:01:56 throughout his works so in short he sound it up like thus everyone who says I'm a Mystic is just an idiot so seeing from that perspective what philosophy uh is for young is that he sees it as a forerunner of modern psychology of a as a precursor and also obviously of his own

01:02:29 psychological theory and he thus positions his own Theory as a contrast to or an explanation of philosophy and not as a philosophical system itself now things are more complicated however because in quite a number of instances we find also very positive statements of uh young about philosophy at times he all but admitted

01:03:00 that he himself was a philosopher at heart quote of what use is philosophical knowledge in the head if one is not also a philosopher at heart or a rare philosophical passion is needed to compel the attempt to get Beyond intellect and break through to a knowledge of the knower such a passion is practically indistinguishable from the driving force

01:03:31 of religion or I've always been of the opinion that ha is a psychologist in Disguise just like I in disguised but why in disguised because in former times the psychologist would have been called a philosopher served by the academic faculties of philosophy and thus has become alienated from life this is why people who professionally study the soul

01:04:03 must concoct their own philosophy and call it for the reasons mentioned above psychology he actually criticized Freud for having been too much of a doctor and empiricist and too ignorant in philosophy quote Freud wasn't much of a philos philosopher he was strictly a medical man something that would recall yon claimed uh to be himself I'm just a

01:04:34 medical man head Freud young wrote head Freud critically examined his own foundations he would never have been able to put his peculiar psychology so naively un viw as he did I I says Young have never refused the bit a sweet drink of philosophical criticism which has helped me to see that every psychology my own

01:05:05 included has the character of a subjective confession and quite similarly in the Tavo lectures I consider my contribution to psychology to be my subjective confession the best we can achieve he wrote is true expression true expression is a confession and a detailed description of what we found in ourselves now but why should such a

01:05:37 confession and an account of our in experiences we as such already regarded as science the question actually is what is empiricism what is a fact in psychology young complains for instance and that's another quote the people prefer to ignore the facts I have discovered or to deny them without scruple but it is the facts that are of

01:06:10 prime importance to me and not a provisional terminology or attempts at theoretical reflection he then gives a surprising example however of such a fact had discovered namely quote the fact that archetypes exist now this is a crucial point is the existence of archetypes really an empirical

01:06:42 fact or is the concept of so-called archetypes not rather a provisional terminology and attempt a theoretical reflection the decisive lead is obviously from experience to Theory with the help of a specific methodology and terminology and it's here I find that young differs from what is generally regarded as a scientific

01:07:12 Enterprise because first he sees manifestations of an alleged unconscious such as dreams already as pure nature as the unvarnished natural truth second and consequently there would be no need to analyze them we simply have to understand them and his method to understanding was

01:07:44 a kind of meditative circum ulation quote I regarded certain things again and again and always from a new Angi because my thinking is circular I circle around the same question again and again that is the method that appeals to me even if we grant that this might be a legitimate method it is to say the least

01:08:16 a redefinition of what is usually regarded as scientific all he could do was to compare three quotes all we've done is to compare individual psychic occurrences with obviously related Collective phenomena or what I've practiced is simply a comparative phenomenology of the mind nothing else there is only one method the comparative

01:08:51 method or my scientific methodology proceed exactly like comparative Anatomy only it describes and Compares psychic figures the comparative psychologist says Yong must not fight shy even of the most obvious and superficial analogies however fores they may seem because they serve as bridges for psychic

01:09:23 connections it would seemed to me however that in order to be able to compare we need a standard of comparison a scale a reference point which would give us the means to decide whether or not such a superficial and for gous analogy for instance is really meaningful and explanatory instead of being caught up in Endless circumambulations at the heart part of

01:09:55 the problem is the fact that anything humans say about themselves is self referential and lacks as young stated numerous times an outside archimedian point from which objective conclusions could be drawn in other words in psychology as in philosophy The Observer and The observed coincide and this is a central point in shar's Phil

01:10:26 philosophy who writes even in self-consciousness the eye is not absolutely simple but consists of a knower the intellect and a known the will the knower is not known and the known is not knowing although the two flow together into the consciousness of an eye but on this very account this eye is not intimate with itself through through does not shine through so to

01:10:58 speak but is opaque and therefore remains a riddle to itself so how can we come to know ourselves or indeed to know our self shophow thought that there was indeed a way we are not merely The Knowing subject but we ourselves are the thing in it self consequently away from within

01:11:29 stands open to us that stands us to that real inner nature of things to which we cannot penetrate from without it is so to speak a Subterranean passage a secret Alliance which as if by treachery places us all at once in the Fortress that couldn't be taken by attack from without precisely as such the thing in itself can come into Consciousness only quite directly namely by being conscious

01:12:01 of itself to try to know it objectively is to desire something contradictory now try and replace in this quote thing in itself with the self and I think uh this could have been written by y if you read it that way but is there really a Subterranean passage that place Us in the otherwise impenetrable Fortress can psychology

01:12:34 really be an ordinary empirical science how can it avoid to become m in Psychology pulling itself up by the bootstraps so to speak or to endlessly go in circles will it really be possible for psychology to become what nature predicted to become the queen of all other Sciences we're actually confronted with the question what is

01:13:06 consciousness which is an even greater mystery I think than the so-called unconscious what is conscious and what is self-consciousness and the original meaning of the word namely being conscious of oneself and also being conscious of being conscious of oneself and is this self-consciousness reliable informant of would really goes on or is it a trickster an

01:13:36 impostor as nature put it does not man live by being constantly deceived does not nature conceal nearly everything from him and in particular what is nearest to him into this consci he's locked and nature threw the key away and of good at times Yung seemed to give us a hint that he did know where nature had

01:14:08 throw the key in other words that he had actually found that archimedian point outside or self- referential system writing for instance we couldn't possibly judge this world if we had not all saved standpoint outside and that is given by the symbolism of religious experience there would exist a spiritual goal the points beyond the purely

01:14:38 natural man in this worldly existence and Not only would such a spiritual goal be an absolute necessity for the health of the Soul it will also represent the archimedian point from which alone it's possible to lift the world off its hinges so but if you knew about the trans individual transcendental

01:15:08 standpoint from which to live the world off its hinges why did he not say it out loud and clear and draw the consequences and here we come to something that has troubled many serious students of his Works name his way of writing young himself complained repeatedly and bitterly about being constantly misunderstood and that only a few chosen a Chosen Few would be able to understand

01:15:41 him there are only a few Heaven inspired Minds who understand me but most people are ignoramuses or unfortunately I have a I've very often had the experience that I was called The Dark One like herlet later I became radically convinced that the confusion was not in my head but in the heads of the

01:16:13 others sometimes we also find hints however that his not being understood perhaps not only Vie to The Limited intelligence or a confusion of his audience but that he held back something on purpose that he didn't tell everything he knew or believed to know quote I have had experiences that are unspeakable as it were because one can never really tell them and because nobody can

01:16:44 understand them they're dangerous because 99% of the people would declare me mad if they hurt them from me and catastrophic because the Prejudice they arous when disclosed could block the others access to a living and wonderful secret uh here is what Yung said about himself and his personality in an

01:17:15 interview I have intuitions about the subjective Factor the inner world what I see are most uncommon things and I don't like to talk about them because I'm not a fool if I were to speak of what I really perceive practically no one would understand me I've learned to keep things to myself and you'll hardly ever hear me talking of these things that is a great disadvantage but it is an enormous advantage in another way for instance I come into the presence of

01:17:47 somebody I don't know and suddenly I have inner images and these images give me more or less complete information about the psychology of the partner it can happen that I know an important piece out of the biography of the person and I'm not aware of it and I tell the story and then the fat is in the fire the things that are interesting to me or are vital to me are utterly strange to the ordinary

01:18:19 individual a stunningly open self diagnosis one could say if well if I had not taken the liberty of using a little ruse or cuge by replacing in this quote the term intuitive introvert by the first person singular by I still y so often portrayed himself as an intuitive

01:18:50 introvert regardless whether he was one or not but he portrayed himself as one that I think we're justified in applying this description to himself so if it was preferable to stay silent about those real important things anyway why did he publish hundreds of Articles and books WR uh Thomas spoke of 3 5,000

01:19:21 letters give so many lectures seminars interviews it seems as if he simultaneously did and did not want to disclose that secret so that the language he used was very often deliberately obscure his books he wrote reveal as much as they disguised it was his explicit intention to write in such a way that fools get

01:19:53 scared away way and only true Scholars and Seekers can enjoy its reading or I try deliberately and consciously to use ambiguous formulations because they are superior to unambiguous ones and correspond better to the nature of our existence he does not write very clearly uh said Marie Louis from France but he does that on purpose he writes

01:20:25 with a double attitude giving full Justice to the paradoxes of the unconscious Buddha once said that all his sayings were to be understood on two levels and yung's writings also have this level four these two levels uh this reminded me of n who had written everything profound loves MKS or as n wrote elsewhere and young

01:20:56 might have agreed we do not only want to be understood when we WR but also quite as certainly not to be understood it is by no means an objection against a book if one or the other person finds it unintelligible perhaps this might just have been the intention of the author perhaps it did not want to be understood by just anybody

01:21:27 but then why shouldn't it be possible to point out and try to explain in a lucid clear and scientific way something obscure ambiguous complex full of tension or even contradictory instead of mirroring and duplicating the Obscure and ambiguous form in which that something presents itself and our young ambiguous statements always deliberately

01:21:59 Obscure take his writings about the archetypes for instance on the one hand he often kind of hypostasized uh REI the arets as if they were cut in down and the other he warned against doing exactly that throughout his work you will find him switching between talking about conrete archetypal images or the So-Cal ilda some of them in a quite quite a

01:22:32 naive way as I find like his picture of the 2 million year old man who could just be asked if one ran into trouble and on the other hand you will find warnings against taking the archetypes literally stressing that they should be seen as quasi instinctual patterns or invisible laws the archetype would be like an invisible Law Of crystallization for instance not the resulting

01:23:03 Crystal another example would be yung's use of the term psychology for both the theory of the psyche the logos the science psychology and on the other hand for just the subjective Viewpoint of an individual so when he told talks about my psychology for instance my psychology is my confession you actually are not quite sure what does he mean does he mean his

01:23:35 theory or his you know his prejudices his own personal Viewpoint or maybe he means both in fact even the title of his book on typology is misleading It should read psychic types or psychological typology not psychological types many have also found it difficult to come to terms with y's concept of

01:24:07 God sometimes he treats God like an old personal acquaintance you know think of the the third God was sitting on the cathedral in Basel or his famous dium in the face Toof face interview I don't need to believe I know or uh the picture he paints of God and answer to to job but at other times he claimed that he was never speaking of God as

01:24:38 such but just of the empirical fact of the self archetype and nothing else as is well known in memories Yun talked about his inner dichotomy the play and counterplay between personalities number one and two which has run through my whole life although he was quick to assert that this pair of opposites is played out in every individual it seems safe to assume that

01:25:10 this dichotomy was particularly distinct in his case I would like to suggest that in yung's theory this dichotomy is reflected in his oscillating stand hands toward a philosophical metaphysical even religious approach on the one hand and a naal natural scientific perspective and the other although Psychiatry and then psychology seemed to offer a way out of

01:25:42 this quander it remained caught up in it to put it a bit provocatively one could say that he wanted to to create the science of dreams and he ended up with the dream of a science in the red book there is a striking passage in which Yong enters into a dialogue with the Fe figure of ubar or

01:26:14 gilgames about the poison of Science and about different types of truth is the bar miserable worm where did you settle on this poison yeah who is the bar most powerful one what you call poison is science you call poison truth is poison truth or is truth poison do not our astrologers and Priests also speak the

01:26:45 truth and yet their is does not act like poison I don't doubt that your priests speak the truth it is certainly a truth truth only once contrary to our truth are there then two sorts of Truth it seems to me to be so Our Truth is that which comes to us from the knowledge of other things the truth of your priest is that which comes to you from inner things we had no choice we

01:27:16 had to swallow the poison of signs this poison is so insurmountably strong that everyone even the strongest the need the internal Gods perish because of it science has taken away from us the capacity of believe what you have lost that too you have lost that too how then do you live We Live th with one foot in the cold and one foot in the H and for the rest come with man can you bear

01:27:48 it not particularly well I personally find myself at ease with it now if we take young statement seriously namely that his inner dichotomy has run through his whole life I'd like to suggest that his choice of uh Psychiatry and psychology as his profession was it in itself an attempt to come to terms with this

01:28:18 dichotomy in fact I I would go even farther and say that we could view his entire work and Theory as such an attempt that is I would call it an attempt to find a superior standpoint to reconcile to understand and to come to terms with these two extreme Poes this took various

01:28:49 forms how am am I doing in in terms of time yeah 10 15 minutes would that be okay yeah so this uh took various forms his his attempt to find a superior standpoint to to reconcile those opposite

01:29:21 poles but but I will still leave that I've I've had a look for instance at his Association experiments which could be seen as an example uh to investigate uh number two with the stopwatch in hand as number one for instance or his wor on schizophrenia in the psychology of demential preo or also his uh book on Transformations and

01:29:51 symbols of the liido but here I'd like to turn to typology I find it crucial that in yung's own assessment the core of his book on psychological types was not the typology but the problem of opposites even if most of the readers as

01:30:22 you not have not noticed it this was not Young's first attempt to tackle the problem of opposites with the help of typology however and uh it wouldn't be the Lost In fact uh I would like to present a view here uh that might surprise some of you and say that one could make out a quity

01:30:53 of typologies in y's work the first nucleus of such a typology can be find found already in his study um the associations of normal subjects written together with France rlin and published in 1904 and 1905 they had found that some individuals tend to react with inter

01:31:23 internal associations that's a qu and others with external ones in other words quote go on two easily recognizable types emerge first a type in whose reactions subjective often feeling tound experiences are used and second a type whose reactions show an objective and impersonal J

01:31:55 this type can be called objective so his first classification distinguish between subjective and objective types in the wake of his book and Transformations and symbols of the libido and the energetic concept of the libido developed therein Yung then developed um another typology in distinguishing between the

01:32:28 two different directions that libido can take and flow inwards or outwards the first he called introversion the second at first with Freud's term transference so it distinguished between introversion and transference in a further step he then renamed the the second extra version and linked these two for the

01:33:00 time being and that's where he stood in his exchange with hmid linked these two uh he linked uh introversion with thinking and extroversion with feeling he stated at that time we're talking 19113 145 that these two types are not only characteristic of pathological

01:33:31 States that's how he introduced them first as characteristics of Hysteria dementia precup respectively but then found out that they also that there may also be normal human types who are distinguished by the predominance of one or other of the two mechanisms and then he made a still much more far-reaching plan Not only would these two types

01:34:02 characterize people but also theories and particularly theories in Psychology thus Freud's theory could be described as extra virgent and odas as introverted and as in Freud and odler these types would also lead as he writes to to Schmid will lead to viewing the world in the light of two

01:34:33 truths these two truths would be two diff two different but equally true equally true perceptions of one and the same situation the point is that Jung then went on to develop still another truth named his own theory of psychological types which would explain why this was so implicitly then this latter truth was

01:35:06 of a higher order than the other two truths Yung found himself in a logical dilemma because he used two different concepts of Truth the two truths he mentioned are actually is two different if valid perceptions or perspectives of one and the same situation something any marriage counselor could tell you about

01:35:39 it or police person asking Witnesses one could say that he separated objective truth from subjective truth the objective truth truth being his own theory of why people have different subjective truths coming back to typology as you all know Yung then presented a third typology in 1920 one

01:36:10 the model of two attitudes and four functions and I won't enter into this here because you're all probably more familiar with that than I'm myself in instead I would like to introduce a fourth detailed theology that completes the cority but has so far not yet appeared in print at the end of the first semester of his lectures at the uh Swiss

01:36:41 Institute of Technology in early 1934 Yung presented a detail taxonomy of Consciousness the main question IT addresses is is where does the light of Consciousness fall now we have a a problem here because according to all the note takers uh Yung Drew this diagram on on

01:37:13 the Blackboard and he wrote right on the left side and he wrote left on on the right side and it's all about opposites and the tension between poles you know so I've left that [Music] standing and just ask you in your mind to to keep in mind then when we are talking about the right side look to the

01:37:44 left okay anyhow in the center there is the subject yeah to which everything relates and the sides to the right and to the left represent an Ever growing level of growing objectification or desubjectification

01:38:16 uh the levels get more objective and more abstract the father we get away from the center and now the right side on the left illustrates the outward goinging development the side of Consciousness now the impression and now I quote Yung as he uh presented that diagram in the lecture hall in Zurich in

01:38:47 1934 he said the impressions of our surroundings that we perceive are not simply the objects themselves but what we perceive are the images of these objects and persons that is this one Impressions the images we perceive things as they appear to us and we're always caught in subjective prejudices that distort and

01:39:18 disturb our perceptions it is as if we were surrounded by an oddly deceptive fog through which we perceive things and which affects our perception The Peculiar way and William James refers to the fog that surrounds us as the The Fringe Of Consciousness the further things lie from us the more objective we can be in

01:39:49 this sphere of abstract ideas that's here and personal or not I way of looking at things exists which is quite free from subjective Prejudice the abstract sphere also contains purely ideational groups which are characterized by a particular idea such as the state the church political party and so

01:40:19 on they usually possess a symbol symbols such as the sun symbol belong to the sphere of the highest ideas idea ideals that's for right now the left side represents the dark inner side the land of projections the realm of affects and moods of an inexplicable nature dreams and Fantasies reach us

01:40:51 through this sphere as well as so-called hunches and Inspirations this is the sphere of unconscious presuppositions which distort affects and ideas in the same way in which the fog distorts perceptions on the other side which corresponds to people and things on the right side for example that's three three plus on the

01:41:22 right side Phantoms and ghosts which cause those affects ideas or dreams on the left side here demons for instance the spirit world is the complete equivalent of the outer world and on the other side of the diagram uh as for instance in the case of the series of pror for whom this fear was the real world

01:41:54 the ghost she was dealing with and seeing this was more real to her than uh real people so to say yeah and in Sam says young we have to envisage this diagram as if a light beam were moving along a scale and where the the light fell that was where where consciousness

01:42:28 was um I actually wonder and and you might wonder with me why you never published this concept all the more so that this new typology would neither devalue nor supersede or exclude his foron typology but would in fact be a perfect complement to it as y points out this new

01:42:59 classification quote refers exclusively to the shifts of Consciousness to its localization to the localization of Consciousness whereas the typology of intra and extroverts of the four functions shows us the quality of the personality that is the bearer of this Consciousness okay to

01:43:32 conclude we can say that young was actually always quite touching when he believed that he was not seen as a died in the wo empiricist and scientist who simply dealt with facts as a matter of fact however he was often perceived as something else and perceived by both of his critics and admirers who both often saw in him a

01:44:02 Mystic a gnostic a religious man a prophet or even compared him to Jesus or to Buddha as we heard from Marie Louisa from France were all these people just idiots we also know that up until the end of his life he had great doubts as to whether he had not failed had not been properly understood and hadn't succeeded in conveying his real message but then with his deliberate use of

01:44:34 obscure and ambigious language to scare the fools away his conviction that only a few Heaven inspired people could understand him how could he expect to be taken as a traditional scientist did he not rather fall into the Trap of playing the role of the Prophet himself which he allegedly tried to investigate scientifically actually this reminded me

01:45:04 a bit of nche uh who was as you know like young the Son of a Preacher Man and uh n also he he never tired of preaching against preaching however that may be at one point young did question his style in a surprisingly self-critical way and I find this really a very very interesting

01:45:35 quote I was shocked to realize said says young I was shocked to realize that I can be quite complicated when dealing with complicated things but this is only adding when one wants to seem deep and profound but in reality this is nothing but an identification with the topic one deals with

01:46:08 indeed so did y wear his alleged scientific stance as a Persona a mask of respectability behind which he hid his religious orientation in letter to Father Victor white he wrote quote my personal view is that man's vital energy or libido is the Divine Numa and it was my secret intention to give my colleagues an

01:46:41 understanding of this conviction when you want to talk to scientists you cannot start with a religious crate if I were talking to peasants I certainly would talk about God since I know that they know of what I'm talking this was Young's dilemma he seemed to believe he had found that archimedian point but couldn't say it out loud because it would be viewed

01:47:15 as well as exactly as what he has been viewed by many anyway Half Crazy unscientific ring mystical Etc so in the long run his strategy didn't work out it seems however that may be I think we may be justified in saying that there is indeed a double floor to Young's writing and that he tried and sometimes despaired his lifelong to speak the

01:47:48 Unspeakable to give intimations of the one great truth truth that cannot be adequately put into words but of which he was convinced that it indeed existed I would call that a philosophical Enterprise thanks [Applause]

01:48:31 we've got 15 minutes for questions John John BBE we promise ourselves we'd work together once more so I've had the chance to read this paper before and hear it each time I have the same interest in it that it seems to me to be one of the very few pieces that ever read about Young's way

01:49:04 into psychological tpes that as young love to say about The Alchemist washes the material in its own water because it seems to me that what you've done is look right at the surface of what Yong is saying about what he's doing psychological types you sort of almost taking your principle from osra Wild that only only superficial people insist on looking beneath the surface and you stayed right at the extroverted sensation level of what Yung said he was

01:49:40 doing and you give us the mass confusa of exactly where y was at at exactly the time he was putting together psychological types because it was just then that he was discovering and identifying with and living out his own inferior function of extroverted sensation so he ends up in some peculiar kind of science which is very like diran science where dirty goes all over the

01:50:10 mountains looking for the flower as if if he can find that one flower he will have actually found the archetype in a scientific way so you get Aesthetics you get relig you get U mountain climbing uh you get deep sea diving it's a very experiential wild ride that calls itself uh science but it's really some kind of adventuring uh that I

01:50:42 think ends up a peculiar philosophy of how you do psychology so you just take whatever you've experienced and make something of it and somehow out of that the typology is born that's how I see it and I think you've taken us there as to how we did that so I'm very grateful to this very grateful to this thanks funny for me because I wanted to get Beyond typology and and take the

01:51:14 bird's eye view on typology so to speak and now John tells me I did it from the standpoint of EXT sensation okay I just have to take that thank you and thank you for your interesting talk I have a a question and a remark um the question and I totally

01:51:44 agree on the ambiguous language in his work and uh you can see he's shaking from being overid totally insecure um now I didn't mention in my opening remarks that he alluded to it he's actually editing the or some some of the uh at lectures which ran throughout the 1930s and this is out of that series he presented here and uh do you find that

01:52:15 the language you uses there is as ambivalent as it is in of his R works because you need to be aware that he was presenting at the for a for a general audience for engineers of course all his his group was there as well like the those who knew but there were all this uh it was the free uh elective course program he was teaching in and uh and I mean one of the expectation why we

01:52:47 think it is worthwhile publishing that from the notes that people have taken is because different language uh he's but I wonder do you find that does he speak more straight uh more clear so that's the question and just a remark I mean you being called The Mystic and and and everything uh and him being so cautious to stress that he's an empiricist in everything uh I mean we we

01:53:18 can we can laugh about it today but but it was it was in everyday life that was a challenge uh my my grandmother tells me there were some of some of her uh the children in her CLA were not allowed to go play in her house he's a utter you don't know what this crazy guy is doing to people and and and that has been Zur in in the early 20th century and many people felt like that just saying one shouldn't forget that although I fully agree on what you

01:53:49 say well um I do want make fun of it so that would be a complete misunderstanding uh to Young lectures at the ATR maybe I I might say a few words about the background young was appointed professor at the which can be translated as the Swiss Institute of Technology still one of the best universities of the world and he gave a series of lectures stting and

01:54:25 1933 winter semester 33 34 and U four people took notes and we're collating those notes and we'll publish uh the notes of of these lectures in an eight volume series with planson University press and I publish four of those volumes um and among them the first volume with with that uh typology in there and to answer your question yes

01:54:57 his language is much clearer much more to the point I mean there was 600 people listening to him they had to move the lecture to the biggest whole lecture whole Auditorium of the university and I mean everybody came you know people from all walks of life uh h h came by and and listened to him and other people and and know

01:55:28 students and actually um he asked uh if he his his his listeners if if people understood him and they complained that he was too popular um so he should speak more about more complicated things but he he didn't carry it through so the last laes in

01:56:00 alchemy I think that's true for the first two maybe three semesters and then also his audience wi okay thank you that was just fantastic um from my perspective as a both a professor of hermeneutics and an analyst I can feel what Yung is trying to do

01:56:31 going back and forth between truths he can talk about which are statistical truths right which seem like typological instructions and then individual experience which he says in volume AG that you can't talk about because they're perfectly unique to that individual so think that as typology gets more complex it eventually becomes attached to a particular individual then it's not a typ

01:57:06 of well of course everybody has their innermost truth that is unique yeah but I think what I wanted to show is just that I think we have to be careful when talking about truth and there are indeed different kinds of Truth and I think the danger in Yung is that he mixes those different kinds of

01:57:37 Truth up and uh confuses his readers and I I talked with John yesterday um was young really such a good thinker as he thought he was and and I doubt that a bit think of of how how bad he was at mathematics I mean he was not the your

01:58:09 your ordinary logical abstract thinker his kind of thinking was different and so what I tried is to you know maybe sh a kind of of of guide through how to read y when it talks about truth that's all right um my question is u in regard to y's oscillation between these two

01:58:40 different points of view and is it possible for him to have done otherwise could he has strictly spoken just as one or the other and it's similar to what you're saying about sometimes he talks about the archetypes as these specific images and other times as a capacity or a function or a law way mode and uh is it possible to to do both of those uh

01:59:11 knowing uh science doesn't do this for example um physics is still looking for the U particle as if that would exist uh the way was with uh to be conscious of that uh is to know when you're hypostasized and when you're not and make it clear in each case science typically does not do that it oscillates between and Y seems to from what you were saying for I understood you be oscillating as well is it

01:59:42 possible to do it in any other way than that I think your question is the answer or you have answered your question yourself one more and the

02:00:13 back thank you uh couldn't this oscillation be considered between two points like when he talked about the waterfall and being the water itself the medium that goes between one and the other and his genius was exactly being able to stay with the focus going from one to the other and express it on both ends and does that make sense at all yeah it's like in Heisenberg I don't know the English you know the

02:00:46 English uh Once You observe something you you Al to the state what he observe exactly and he was the matter itself I mean that's what the point was in that book that's that's actually what what the whole talk was about that the that the Observer and The observed coincide and influence each other and how can we escape that self referential system and yung's way was one

02:01:19 possible attempt to to do that and as we've heard also from from other people uh there is a paradox that is in built and we cannot Escape that that's that's part of our Human Condition so I think yes yeah you're right thank you well thank you we'll make a short break of 10 minutes thank you

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02:13:17 free who's the second speaker do you know who it is you identify second speaker I'm sorry John John byel isting

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02:17:21 can I have your attention for quick announc if anyone is interested in if anyone is interested in social work continuing credits please come see me at the end of the event and we'll have certificates for you

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02:19:27 okay we'll get started again somebody get the door um welcome everyone I hope you enjoy the the first uh lecture ation um I actually I'm an analyst with thean psycho analytic

02:19:58 Association and this uh day is an experiment for us uh twice a year uh we have training weekends which are Community colia uh where the community of anal and candidates gather generally Upstate to train and so uh this weekend we decided to try an experiment where we're hosting a public event and so it's a combination of public event and also training weekend and our hope is that those of

02:20:28 you that are members of the public the jpa analysts and candidates that are here will all get to know each other and share ideas so welcome everybody and it's my honor to introduce John B and John trained is a yian analy at the CG Institute of San Francisco graduating in 1978 in 1979 he founded the San Francisco Yung

02:21:01 Institute library Journal a quarterly now published by Ru as Yung Journal culture and psyche in 1990 he became the first American co-editor of the Journal of analytical psychology and between 2000 and 2002 sir is president of the San Francisco y Institute over the years he's been chair of the San Francisco Institute certifying international student and

02:21:32 development communties since 2010 he has been quite involved in the training of future analysts in mainland China serving as a liaison to the Shanghai developing group of the International Association for analytical psychology visiting analyst to the guangju developing group and a professor at the City University of maau his work on psychological types was recognized by the Association for

02:22:03 psychological type International in 2019 with the president's award for merit in addition to serving as co-editor with ER Fator on the CG H schm gizan correspondence he's the author of integrity depth and a number of essays linking the growth of Integrity to the development of one's psychological type his own long awaited book on typology energies and patterns in psychological type the reservoir of

02:22:36 Consciousness will be published by rage in 2016 John [Applause] chapter 10 of the book psychological types presents us with an eight function

02:23:07 attitude Marvel of Consciousness some of the insights by which y got there between 1904 when he first approached the type problem and 1919 when he wrote the book psychological types are dramatized if only by our recognition of how much they were needed in the Yung Schmid gizon correspondence that Ern fader and I

02:23:40 prepared for publication in English the insights came to Yung only slowly but they are key moments in the development of the eight function model and for that reason I'd like to quickly highlight three of them right here first was the need to break free from the

02:24:10 oversimplification that was undermining The credibility of yung's insistence on the centrality and power of one's do Consciousness to structure one's relation to Truth at the time of the correspondence Yung still thought that all Consciousness was rational and that everything in the unconscious was irrational the idea of the irrational

02:24:43 was something he had taken from Beren brilliantly Yong had recognized that there were two basic types of rationality thinking which Yung saw at that early time as the introverted kind of rationality and feeling which he imagined as the extroverted kind of

02:25:13 rationality I have to say it was a big step to make feeling a rational function the did Big big step so in the book Schmid gizan was cast as the extroverted feeling type in the dialogue and Yung was cast as the introverted thinking type what emerged however was a

02:25:44 different Clash Al together today we would call the clash between an introverted intuitive temperament yung's arguing his position in extroverted thinking terms and an extroverted intuitive temperament Schmid gizan arguing its position in introverted feeling terms that Schmid gizan and Yong could

02:26:14 not agree about first principles is an understatement of the two it was Schmid gizan who realized that yong's original two- function model needed to be expanded he even provided in his letter number four the first diagram of a four function model I invite you to look at footnote number 100 which I wrote in a very effusive way and earnst edited back

02:26:47 down to a very dry pointing out this is not unlike what y gave us a few years later the second Insight follows but it was y who engaged with Schmid gan's extroverted intuition in a real enough extroverted Sensi way he did it first by shaking up his

02:27:19 own Rel a ation to truth through the red book experiences the way he did this was by knowing he had lost his soul that she would be a she and that he had to find her and submit himself to her that much he knew before he began that his soul however presented herself as the embarrassing salom who had demanded Ed the head of

02:27:52 John the Baptist offered young a chance to put his original idea that all Consciousness is rational on The Chopping Block this was the payoff in his recognition that our area of incapacity is as important and valuable as our capacity where the development of Consciousness is concerned in the encounter with salom yung's introverted

02:28:24 intuition which Ernst has demonstrated to be yung's dominant function subordinated itself to his inferior function extroverted sensation and allowed actually experiencing rather than just knowing to take the lead in his relation to the psyche extroverted sensation the gritty

02:28:55 textured keenly observant Consciousness that informed yung's active imagination was personified by a woman he had always looked on as his inferior the INF Infamous belly dancer Salam who had kissed the head of John the Baptist when it was brought to her still dripping blood Yong sub committed his knowing to his experiencing and let sh salom show

02:29:26 him what was in the irrational realm the reality of the psyche and the gifts of Prophecy and magic in this way he first experienced and then knew that Consciousness is more than thinking and feeling it is also sensation and intuition a third great moment of

02:29:57 insight comes also in the red book when Yung through the adventures that salom arranges for him experiences the types of Consciousness that were in Shadow for him in figures such as the trickerish red one the crazy intrusive anabaptists the dry anchorite and the lazy these experiences I think help to clarify that the conflict between

02:30:29 between Schmid gizan and Yung was not just between extrovert and introvert or between feeling and thinking but also and more fundamentally between two very different kinds of feeling two very different kinds of thinking and above all two very different kinds of intuition leaving the two men understandably at loggerheads as to how

02:30:59 the type Theory should develop thus in time Yung came up with what we would now describe as his eight function attitude model of Consciousness as the best way to describe the categories of Consciousness that come into conflict between people at this point Yong is clear that the dominant function is not our only

02:31:30 available type of Consciousness but rather one of many at the time Yung was untangling his model beatric Hinkle here in New York came up with her own slightly different scheme and uh J Sherry has been working on Hinkle's biography I think her work on type definitely deserves a close look and

02:32:01 after yung's publication Katherine Briggs and her daughter Isabelle Meyers used Jung's work as the basis of the Myers Briggs type indicator the mbti that is today the way most people understand typology Myers and Brick's followers in hundreds of Publications have made major contributions to describing the day-to-day experience of people as shaped by their inborn typological

02:32:33 preferences the main development in yongan analytic thought about type during the same period has been Von France's demonstration of how the inferior function establishes itself as the Connecting Point to the conscious following Von France's lead my own work has been to see yung's typology not as his ego psychology as many would have it but as his self

02:33:05 psychology remembering that the English addition of psychological types is subtitled the psychology of individuation so today I would like to take Insight in a somewhat New Direction by individuating the types of Consciousness we all carry and asking what they look like in all of us as they develop from Persona to Ego to

02:33:39 self the third most developed level the self level I might also call the JIS sauce the playful joy of the function when we use it most fully as a Consciousness that not only defends and asserts ourselves but actually connects us in a rather deep way to the reality of others whom we can allow to be

02:34:10 different so you can say here endeth the lesson now now I'm going to have you look at the at the handout that I that I gave you so that each of you can kind of follow along as I unpack the eight function attitudes that Yung names in psychological types so to get us used to the language code we of course have the two four

02:34:41 functions and the two attitudes and so I'm going to be referring to feeling with a capital f and thinking with a capital T and intuition with a capital N not to confuse it with introversion and S with sensation this is done by type practitioners all over the world so it's hardly original the attitudes e for extroverted I for introverted

02:35:12 so you see on the handout a list vertically start starting with extroverted sensation in the top left going down to introverted feeling the bottom left in the leftand column the eight function attitudes that young names in the names that have become so familiar to us who read yian psychology and at the same time so incredibly

02:35:43 opaque so opaque that very few people that I have ever met in my life can truly tell one from another it would be almost as if we're trying to work with music and no one has ever taken a soul F class and they can't tell the difference between do and Ray and me and Fa and if we can't do that with the with the psychological types we've completely lost what Yung intended with his lexicon which was to actually give us a way to

02:36:14 read human consciousness so I talked about this problem over and over again with a number of people and one of them was the novelist Diane Johnson is's a good friend of mine some of you may know her novel The Divorce a few of you may know her novel uh the shadow no she's a quite wonderful writer very psychological uh psychologically minded writer and like me a lover of Henry James and Jane

02:36:46 Austin and she said you know we really have to find words in common speech that correspond to the function attitudes that Yung is talking about because these names that Yung has given them may have worked for him and they may have become a kind of lingua franka in the union world but nobody's getting it I'm not seeing what they're talking about so with that

02:37:18 inspiration for the last several years I've been looking for the names that actually seem to me to fit the eight functions and some of you in the room were present when I was at a conference in U Cleveland where I actually gave my first effort to come up with eight names names that I thought got to the

02:37:48 heart of the uh the different functions of Consciousness so quickly and stating very quickly what those names were on that particular day I came up with extrovert for extroverted sensation

02:38:19 with experiencing and I came up for introverted sensation with verifying I came up with for extroverted intuition with envisioning and I came up for introverted intuition with knowing and

02:38:49 for extroverted thinking with planning and for introverted thinking with defining for extroverted feeling with affirming an introverted feeling this was the hard one eventually I came up with appraising now those words seemed to me to describe in Jaren language verbal nouns what these mental processes were actually trying to accomplish for the

02:39:21 people who were using them their method of being conscious their particular favored method of being conscious and I was watching like a hawk the people in the room as I was talking and as the names emerged it seemed to make sense to the people there it happened I have to say rather fast it tumbled out rather quickly and I think the unconscious hit quite a role in in what happened that day

02:39:55 now in that particular room there was a man named dick kuster who began to think that one word was not enough that if you could create a semantic field and you in could in some way get other words that I had mentioned on root that they were words that were close to what I was talking about but

02:40:25 not the heart of what I was talking about so he took things that I'd already said and he made a little diagram that he handed to me at the break and um he remembered that I had used the word defining for introverted thinking so he was interested in that um and uh but he said along the way I had tried

02:40:57 out naming and I had also tried out understanding so he did a little diagram a little triangle with defining at the Apex and naming and understanding the lower corners and suddenly there was a semantic field that if you looked at it suddenly what introverted thinking is about seemed at least to me to come alive so in a moment of he

02:41:30 inspiration in front of a very loving and patient group of people who were there for four days to hear me talk about psychological type and we had the luxury of going on about it and lots of people who were type practitioners and had used type for years I proceeded and as fast as talking to you right now some of you who are there will remember it to create triangles for all a function

02:42:03 attitudes and something happened to us it was as if at that point it began to be clear what we'd always been talking about and we could begin to see with each of us who were bent on using particular functions of Consciousness were actually doing or thought we were doing when we were doing that so that became the diagram that you now have which has on this one sheet of

02:42:34 paper 24 names 24 words for the eight function attitudes now it took me quite a while of working with what had emerged to realize that I had what looked to me like a temporal sequence if you read across from now this is me and young the left to the

02:43:05 right I was 20 years old before I knew my right from my left I want you all to know um the function we call introverted thinking starts with naming something in fact you can often spot an introverted thinking type by the particular Precision with which they insist on using words it can drive some people crazy it can be very uh uh refreshing to others naming it's where it

02:43:38 starts by the way hidden in the background is the word identifying which I rejected only because it has so many other meanings in Psychology but that naming is a form of identifying but introverted thinkings don't just identify something they name it they always name it they have to name it but what it's moving toward is something much more subtle than naming it's actually defining defining a situation defining what we're talking about the great James Helman who I I'm

02:44:11 sure was using introverted thinking as his leading function was astonishingly good at defining what we're talking about essay on the feeling function is an is an exercise in defining which is just jaw-dropping um now this defining is of course not taking dictionary definitions and repeating them it's freshly and originally defining by Consulting some

02:44:42 kind of internal place that already knows whether the definition fits or not that's the introverted move there's some kind of archetypal process that the introverted functions use as their background against which to come up with uh what they do so the defining if and if you've ever heard a James hman lecture or read a James hman essay you can see and find that process in action

02:45:12 there's some kind of standard of truth that is constantly being used against which the words come and that's very exciting of course sometimes does not know when to stop and that's the other side of that but it's not just caught up in defining it's moving towards something else in time it's hoping to get to understanding really understanding which is beyond

02:45:42 naming or defining or to understanding so that by the time you get to understand understanding you are with Lao when he says the name that can be named is not the true name and by the time you're through with lso you do understand what the da is in a very wonderful way and that movement is very much a movement there so at first I thought well this is just how the function develops over time

02:46:13 how it ripens how it likes to work in a conversation with a friend how it likes to present itself gradually I realized that these three moments are not just time sequence moments along some path by which the function ripens and comes into its own they also belong to very different worlds of what I could call

02:46:46 self-development and those words already been given perfectly good names by CG Yong and those names are Persona ego and self so at the Persona level introverted thinking can be a little bit obnoxious because it's always naming everything with the vocabulary just a little ahead of everybody else's even if the words

02:47:16 are short uh it's one is more grateful to it when it defines if it doesn't go on too too long and there's a lovely thing to watch an intellectual introverted thinking type defining a situation it's fun but that's the ego level the self level is something very very different the self level is a moment where

02:47:49 not only has a deep connection been made by the person uh to the TS to the goal of the whole mental process the whole function but there's an unus Mundus to it there's a connection with others to it suddenly as it's been as it's been not just named and defined but everyone begins to

02:48:20 understand together something really exciting happens and that is led by the introverted thinking but it certainly transcends the ego and it's certainly no longer just a persona it's a deeply connected self level of the function and this is what I'm calling the juance of the function it's a great it's a great pleasure listening to James Helman lecture could be like listening to the greatest Jazz it was wonderful to hear him blow it was just absolutely wonderful and it was thrilling and it

02:48:50 made you feel better until the last 10 minutes when he went on past the point he should have stopped but each of the functions has that particular uh built-in liability that even at the self level sometimes it goes on a little too long I I speak this way of of Jim in in full projection because when I was using my introverted thinking which is my auxiliary function I remember once when I was applying to the college

02:49:22 literary magazine and I kept trying to add one more brilliant Insight onto another someone said you know having killed Hector it's really not seamly to drag his body around in the sand so no function can do everything so one of the questions in individuation is why aren we always just in the ego of

02:49:54 the function what is the Persona of the function and what is the self of the function well one thing I've learned in my type work is that when you're using one of the functions of Consciousness at the Persona level you're defending yourself to some degree and there's just a little bit of an oppositional attitude in the way

02:50:24 in which you're using the function so often when introverted thinking people you meet them for the first time and the first thing you notice is that naming Persona you're also noticing that they've got just a smidgen of extroverted thinking in there they're they're defending thems with the same function with the opposite attitude it's just somehow in there so that somehow the

02:50:57 thinking although very precise you have the funny feeling you're being pushed away you're being managed you're being handled in some way it could be that you're being seduced it could be that you're being avoided it could be U that someone is being a bit passive aggressive at your expense or there may even be using the function in a in a frankly rather paranoid way in any case there's just a touch of the of the opposite attitude so

02:51:28 that it becomes introverted thinking with just a bit of extroverted thinking thrown in and they usually is that feeling of oo that person doesn't want to get close to me now I believe that when we use any function in that Persona way we're slightly obnoxious people actually are a bit a bit annoyed by us and so when we meet

02:51:59 each other and the Persona of our of the typology that the type of Consciousness we habitually use might be our dominant function might be some other but the one we're using is being used if used in a personal way also in a somewhat defensive way and I think it immediately attracts type Prejudice it's as if we the one thing we can't stand about that person is their psychological type we don't say it in

02:52:30 yian terms but that's what it is we don't like that type and for many people that's where typology and studies of typology end they only see the Persona use of the function and it makes them a little angry if we are privileged as I am privileged to sit across from people for long periods of time many hours 5 days a week of individual people in Psychotherapy telling me how it is for

02:53:02 them I have the luxury of hearing what people are actually like when they are being at least the ego they want to be if I've created the space where they can at least do that um then I get a very very different picture of the type so the person who may have annoyed me initially by his need to name everything in sight begins to Thrill Me by their ability to Define and suddenly

02:53:34 I'm really interested in the definitions they come up with and I'm enchanted by it and the ego of the person is now something that's welcome in the Consulting room and unfolds and then that work that I think is the work of almost every psychotherapist I know of some kind of ego building some kind of of ability to to let the ego of the person be and come forward is it's really quite exciting to see the different types of Consciousness and to see why God made them all why they all

02:54:06 have a right to be whatever your original Ty Prejudice and you can begin to see what Yung was trying to do with his theory which is to give the working psychotherapist some way to feel the beauty of Consciousness however if you do long-term Psychotherapy work sooner or later you get sick and tired of someone's ego and exactly the way that you were once annoyed by their Persona

02:54:37 there's a way in which you feel like if if all we're going to get is that ego over and over again I don't know if I can stand to keep on doing this work maybe fortunately I'm getting older I could retire and so forth and so on and that is the time when the miracle either happens or it doesn't happen where the person themsel either picking up a little on your impatience which I

02:55:08 think is sometimes a very therapeutic ingredient or sometimes just because having come this far why not go all the way the person begins to OB open up to the self level of the function now I have noticed that when that happens whatever function it may be and wherever it may be located in our typology it only works

02:55:39 if the inverse of that function that which if we were talking about the dominant function would be its inferior function also gets into the mix in fact it may happen first that that comes up a little before that self level is reached so I want to show you this slide to remind you of something that Yung discovered which I think is amazing and if this isn't science it'll

02:56:10 have to do until the real thing comes along because I've actually seen it I think it I think it's there or have I been taken in by the theory I don't think I know but to me right now there's a great truth in the idea that the functions exist in relation to their inverse and we sometimes use the term opposite confusingly and Yong often use that's one of the terms like truth that he could he could use confusingly or

02:56:40 blurring but introverted intuition and extroverted sensation are in reciprocal or inverse relation to each other extroverted intuition and introverted sensation extroverted feeling and introverted thinking and introverted feeling and extroverted thinking all on form axes of Consciousness those four axes should be learned by heart in the

02:57:10 first grade but of course we're not there yet very very important now we were to go back to our introverted thinking before introverted thinking is going to get to the point that creates understanding at the self level the person is going to have had to make some kind of gesture in the

02:57:42 direction of extroverted feeling so now I want to share you the extroverted feeling extroverted feeling is very much the inverse of of of introverted thinking it's a completely different set of strategies at the Persona level it's totally validating there is I'm okay you're okay no matter what

02:58:13 anyone says that's great that's great extroverted feeling it's not as political and as cynical as it sometimes seems to people who don't like extroverted feeling when they meet it as a Persona at its heart it's really about affirming the right of others to be and the being of others and it's a very

02:58:44 exciting function it's one of the few functions um that really works to deal with extremely wounded in particularly psychotic people our best treatment for psychotic people is not phenazine it's appropriate extroverted feeling it's an amazing as Harry St Sullivan many others knew it very very important and young was able to deploy that extraordinarily well psychotic patient something that most people don't

02:59:14 realize about him but he did but again it moves toward relating so that trajectory of extroverted feeling has to be glimpsed and experienced in some way as important to someone using introverted thinking if they're ever going to use introverted thinking at the self level of understanding so look at that inverse

02:59:45 trajectory and then go back to the slide about introverted thinking and see how you get from defining to understanding by taking a little bit of a dip through validating affirming and relating and then you begin to kind of get the magic and the Mystery of these eight function attitudes each of them implies an

03:00:16 individuation trajectory one which involves disconnecting with the opposite attitude use of that function to keep others at a distance and the other connecting to what might be called the Ana inverse of that function that enables it to somehow become connected to other people at the level of the self and then think about

03:00:48 where we mostly are and have to be which is neither at the level of the defended Persona or the unus mundas connected self but functioning as an ego and then see how different our projects are as people who are in the business of making themselves effective in the way they deploy their Consciousness how amazingly different we are we just go back to those

03:01:20 eight terms that I started with imagine imagine someone whose greatest interest is in defining and someone else whose greatest interest is in verifying and someone else whose greatest interest is in affirming someone else whose greatest interest is in planning and someone else

03:01:51 whose greatest interest is in knowing and someone else who greatest interest is in envisioning and someone else whose greatest interest is in experiencing what do we do with all these amazing differences between people now Yung gave us a help when he said that some of these ways are rational ways and some are irrational ways I mean believe me I

03:02:24 don't choose to Envision I just Envision as an extroverted intuitive and I think many people don't and many people choose to affirm because they're dealing with a rational function like extroverted feeling so how can someone understand the ego of someone who chooses to affirm and wonders why I don't make that choice when I just Envision and wonder why

03:02:55 that's not happening to them the difference between us is probably more greater than the difference between men and women the difference between the rational and the irrational type I find I have more in common with women who are also irrational than with men who are who are rational because they're on a different journey and I have to shake myself to realize they have a choice I have no choice I things my my intuition simply happen to me and I have to follow them and I have

03:03:27 my whole life uh but they're certainly not but they' have not been choices um I hope this little Glimpse gives you a sense of the reason that um I have taken typology seriously since I first encountered it uh I have to say when I was

03:04:01 uh 18 years old and made friends with u uh a patient of a former patient of beatric hles Nancy hail wonderful writer wonderful young and um Nancy was using hle system which involved complicated terms like uh

03:04:32 emotional introvert and subjective extrovert and I remember asking her when I was 18 whether I was a an extrovert or an introvert and she said oh there's no question you're an extrovert you're just a very very introverted uh extrovert with lots of introspection but that that was good enough for me that was my first type that was my first type diagnosis

03:05:07 so I'd like to engage all of you I've sort of told you sort of what I what matters to me about this and why I'm doing this and some of the words I've come up with you have the the sheet I could explain every single word on the diagram to you but I think it's more interesting to take the time we have to dialogue just a little bit with it with you so that we can see the implications of how I'm seeing

03:05:38 yung's map of Consciousness as also a map of potential individuation that's what I'm seeing here I'm trying to show you how the types themselves are pressing toward some kind of individuation of themselves so I wanted to kind of let you engage with me a little just to see what you what you do with this what you do with this idea [Applause]

03:06:28 yeah it's rather stunning how often Ty is unconsciously used to pathologize the other and I was thinking that last year when the dsm5 was in the process of being formulated introversion was put under a form of theology so that gives you some sense of even how on a cultural level there's a projection onto another type if it's pathological and I was wondering if you could address

03:06:58 that well I actually did address it we had we were called upon the the ideas for the U um new nomenclature were presented sometime in February of um as I recall 2010 and I was on the phone the very next day to three presidents of organizations one was the president of the IAP um Hester Solomon um one was the president of apti

03:07:31 international and um one was the president of the Council on North American Society of Union analysts denar Carpenter um Adam tell me the name of the president of the apti uh International this uh in San Francisco before would doesn't matter at this moment but if you remember let me know because you you knew her and we talked I called her in any case everyone agreed

03:08:02 to help and so I was participant in the construction of two of the letters and um letters were invited actually about the plans and the plan was to create introversion as not exactly this time of personality disorder that had been tried with dsm3 in 1980 and Thomas kir had done what I did in 2010 H as the president of the Y

03:08:33 Institute of San Francisco and wrote a letter to Robert Spitzer and the letter that he wrote to Robert Spitzer basically strongly talked about how introversion was a normal process in human life what I suggested that Hester say is that it's as stupid for a uh psychiatrist to pathologize uh introversion as it would be for a pulmonologist to be told to pathologize

03:09:03 inspiration and it seems that we were heard um our colleague David Rosen knew a man named Les Mory at at Texas A&M University who was actually on the team making up the criteria for this particular section he brought the concerns and they say that they would they bowed it back to withdrawal as the uh as the thing they were calling introversion but the Prejudice is still there and I think it's going to pop out

03:09:35 again it's it just comes back again and again there's something wrong with people who are introverted and I think that's been going on since the Enlightenment and I think it's a shadow side of extroverted thinking planning that would come out in the diagnostic uh nomenclature very offputting yeah thank you very much the matter of four model versus the eight attitude

03:10:05 function model in Isabelle's book GI diing somewhere in there is a pretty good rundown of the eight attitude functions yes now given that when she was still alive I asked Mary mcau about that why it's not in the popularized new my model you know strictly po functions she indicated somewhat defensively the reason was is to keep it

03:10:37 simple and don't complicate it too much for the public could you add to that well just yes I knew Mary mcau too and she was very fond of uh what I was doing with psychological types and and so was Katherine Myers is Katherine Myers as well bricks me's daughter-in-law who's very very in favor of the eight function approach and they've all told me that the that the issue is that the mbti is an indicator

03:11:08 it's not the way to type anyone in fact in the association for psychological type International it's considered ethical to type people on the basis of administering the nbti you have to at the very least have a follow-up individual one-on-one interview that begins with something like you really can be any type you want to be the indicator seems to indicate you are this pattern of dominant and auxiliary

03:11:39 function and let's see if it fits you let's I'll tell you what the terms mean you see if they fit you unfortunately in the real world I see yion analysts who feel that the only way they could possibly know their type is to take the mbti which is a complete misunderstanding even worse there's online in China a watered down version of the mbti and someone will take it

03:12:10 online I have heard of a situation where a young woman uh got herself and and her boyfriend to uh her fiance in fact to um take the mbti found out they were incompatible and broke up at once so the misuse of this is a terrible terrible problem and the only cure for that is if we can ourselves learn to recognize the different consciousnesses it's perfectly possible to figure out what Consciousness a person is using if you

03:12:41 train yourself as I'm trying to help you recognize that's why it came up with this to help people have type recognition so that you can actually recognize extroverted sensation for what it is until it is different from introverted intuition and introverted thinking but right now we're we're stuck in a very primitive form of typology that we've got to find a way past if we're going to use this as I think you'll intended it be

03:13:11 used yeah I'm looking over your words here and I find it so interesting for the introverted intuition yeah that you ended up with knowing for the ego level yeah and I reminded since Ernest brought it up that you says in that interview that he doesn't believe in God that he knows yes so I find that kind of an interesting

03:13:41 coincidence but my question is that you def find as perception via the unconscious so how do you relate that to the Persona and ego because it's kind of hard to see an unconscious function used in those ways I'm better endorse something that erns said the Hillis quisel also said there was a way in which y couldn't

03:14:14 think it's it's shocking in a as brilliant as he was because James Helman said talking to you was like looking at the son I mean there's no question that Y is brilliant but some of his thinking formulas are in my opinion very very um leave a lot to be desired and that's one of them now there's a tremendous wonderful Note book by Natalie pillard p i l h a r d which has just come out from

03:14:44 carac books that I recommend to all of you is called Y and intuition and this is the book we've all been waiting for in which all the different ways you uses the term intuition all the different means it has and the intellectual pedigree all the way back to cons intellectual intuition and so forth but I have to say that calling intuition uh perception by way of the unconscious smacks of his model of the

03:15:15 Mind in 192 12 when he wrote um the first version of symbols of transformation that P hle translated in English is psychology the unconscious in germano and there he had the idea that there were two kinds of thinking and the kind of thinking that belonged to the to the conscious mind is the rational thinking and the kind of mind thinking that belongs to the unconscious is the irrational thinking so so it took him a

03:15:48 long time to accept that there was an intuitive function at all was Maria molzer his associate for a Time who suggested the idea in a lecture she gave to the newly formed analytical psychology club and he himself says it took him over a year to accept it and he never quite comes fully out of the closet once and for all and says I am an introverted intuitive but I know you Vicky Joe have found many examples where y says this and Ernst has found what I

03:16:19 think is the Smoking Gun the way you translated uh that case that he talks about in the Houston interviews and just say that's really a self-description of you I think you're absolutely right um if you've got going an idea from way back when that the unconscious is where irrationality is then by definition for intuition to function as an irrational function it has to go by way at the unconscious but why not allow yourself

03:16:51 to know what y learned only at the hands of Salam by experiencing it for himself for once and for all this is y's greatest discovery but even he would slip away from it there's such a thing as irrational Consciousness and irrational Consciousness does not have to go via the unconscious it works at the level of the conscious and I don't we're going to solve many of the problems in science I think bever would say in quantum theory in other places if we cannot accept

03:17:22 irrational Consciousness and I think you got it but even he would go back to the way he used to think and so I think that's what correct thing there with that definition so that's why I use these words instead of saying perception by way of the unconscious I say that when I use extroverted intuition um I start by entertaining and I entertain in two senses I I'm actually entertaining an idea and I'm being entertaining while I

03:17:54 entertain it if I can be and only gradually do I get to a point where I'm suddenly envisioning something and once I've envisioned it and if I'm willing to go down to my introverted sensation and actually go through a process and it's a very painful process of implementing and verifying and accounting then I can actually enable what I've envisioned and I have to say

03:18:25 that I had to do this with a journal that I found where I had this Vision that we could have a library journal in the Yi Institute that really mean something and uh it did become a very successful uni in publication but the only way it survived at my Institute was making sure that he actually had a business model and we could actually account for the uh uh cost of the journal and the profit of the journal and um I got my introverted

03:18:55 sensation friend Adam to help us with a with a careful look at the books and I proved that we could make money on the on the journal and we did for a number of years and that enabled the uh my vision to become something rather than one of the many nonstarter intuitions that I've seen all my life in the union world so that process of taking your taking your function and taking it all the way has been very

03:19:26 satisfying to me with a few projects otherwise I would just wake up at night feeling that my life had really been a failure that I've had a lot of had a lot of great ideas that never came to anything and I didn't for whatever reason want that to happen to me it was a it was a value for me to keep going and the helped me figure out how you do that so that be my answer to that yeah go

03:19:56 ahead yeah I wanted ask you a little B more about what you were saying about the Persona function and you were isolating it role to defend and I was wondering if you also had another role which is to engage and if so how that would inflict oh I'm so glad you brought that

03:20:27 up because and I and it's so to the point the Persona is the most either the most neglected of the Yan archetypes or the most maligned and I'm afraid I walked into the malignant side of it uh what I was really trying to get at is how offensive the Persona can be to others and how it can be a source of type bias for the person who's wearing a Persona however if anyone has ever tried to live

03:20:58 without a Persona they find very quickly how miserable it is and so what I do with a number of analytic people is help them build up the Persona precisely not only so they can defend themselves in the world but so that they can actually connect with other people uh and I certainly spend a vast am my energy developing a Persona that I think will actually work with people as I would have to do and how I dress today and how I clean myself up and all the and how I figure out how I'm going to

03:21:29 present this material in a way that would be halfway pleasing all of that I think is terribly connected so yes there's a relatedness uh level to the Persona uh and even when you get to the self level of course the law of opposites is all through psychological typ there's a dark side to the self so you can sometimes be at the self level and be quite in an evil place not just in a place where youris sance is everybody else's uh Bliss but actually it's very

03:22:00 much at their expense there's a sadism that can come up at that level which is a very painful thing to contemplate that anyone that's been around individually unions long enough knows it's true it's true yeah yes you as thank you because uh you know you you were saying a little bit earlier how

03:22:31 intuition is irrational I can't account for it it just comes to but I could say the same thing about feeling I think maybe my understanding is a little primitive but I think feeling I think feeling is much closer than being something you can't control in that sense than thinking can

03:23:02 be we have much more choice in in thinking in in ways you're describing and it was precisely for that reason that feeling was always placed in the irrational category by Romantics and others uh what what I have noticed though is that introverted feeling often starts with a judgment that does not want to stay there but wants to finish

03:23:34 itself so that it's true that when you first encounter something you know particularly if you have strong and introverted feeling whether you like it or don't like it and you immediately make a judgment I think that that phenomenon I would agree but what happens next and how the function develops seems to me to bring out the essential rationality of the function because I've never worked with an introvertive feeling type and

03:24:05 Analysis who no matter how harsh the initial judgment was didn't go on reflecting on it and appraise it and try to weigh it and bring it back to the next session and talk about it some more with me until what was initially something that almost made me want to terminate I felt so rejected uh by the I want to retaliate in other words the judgment on me is so strong and it I want to call it unanalyzed super ego pathology and them

03:24:37 but it's actually unanalyzed super ego pathology in me that I take it so uh so badly and then I but the person will come back and if I can make a space they will talk and it will become an evaluation it will become an appraisal and they will and it'll be very nuanced and then we go beyond that to establish the value behind the whole thing the judgment and the appraisal so that I feel like I've had a course in moral

03:25:08 Philosophy by the time I'm through and that feels to me if you look at the process entirely over time like a very very rational process in a way that my entertaining envisioning and enabling feels much less out of my control and just something that I just do I mean I don't work at it nearly as hard I think think of of feeling people work much harder in therapy than I did in that sense and when I started working on my feeling I said oh my God now I'm having

03:25:40 to work as hard as they do I used to enjoy going thy now it's really work to do that stuff um so I hope that helps you see why I keep going to different places yes please other yes for time uh John would you describe the difference between um in extroverted intuition envisioning and in introverted intuition

03:26:10 divining because if divining is at that self level almost feels as if we're working in the world of the unconscious the oracular the synchronistic the to Divine almost has a intuitive a deep intuitive function that's going into the legends of yeah so anyway if you if you could

03:26:42 that would be great because the the two sound very similar but I know they're going very different directions well there are two names in the scheme that deliberately have double meanings and I and one is entertaining for the extroverted intuition in the Persona because the the extroverted ts are natural entertainers but they're also people who naturally entertain things now divining does have a double meaning

03:27:13 it it's at one in one sense it's seeing in what direction the future is bending I put a footnote on this just so I would keep it straight myself seeing in what direction the future is bending but it's also describing the Divine Purpose in the developing situation and I believe Yung did both you see his divining in the statement he makes in U I think it's the

03:27:46 zerus seminars where he talks about the gods have become diseases young seeing the god in the disease seems to me an act of divining I also think that the genius of introverted intuition is to apprehend the Divine sometimes the ability to apprehend the Divine is so extraordinary that one thinks only God could know God that

03:28:17 well so I realize many many many people here are are are are Christian but in that image God came to the Earth as a man and as a man the man must have had in addition to a human body a psychological type and I think that psychological type had to be introverted intuition now if you're not quite Christian as I say

03:28:48 about myself because I'm sort of Christian but I'm not in a certain way in the sense that the Divinity gets of the man bothers me but I'm not sure I'm talking about a distinction with a difference because the ability to Divine God that well is very Godlike so that's that's one way to say it there a Divinity in in that kind of introverted intuition that the greatest religious Geniuses have had and they feel what God is and tell us

03:29:18 what it is and if that isn't God it'll have to do until the real thing comes along it's like that for at least some of us so that's the inter the strange and Yung could do that he could sometimes Divine in that way he could feel that feel that thank you for a wonderful talk of it is amazing to me so my question is I think the better you someone the harder it is to say what

03:29:48 type they are and could you relate that to the fact which I find hopeful that in the uh individuating Journey all types Bel to each of us yes precisely and you have found found the God and the disease of my talk because uh you you are just right it's it some of it is course our connection to the inferior function is

03:30:18 our chance to encounter another that we care about deeply and that's how it happened to me in my analysis when I found my anima and saw her alone in a room not getting anything and I felt something for her and I began to take care of her I had for me with an introverted sensation on them of what Yung had with salame as an extrovert uh sensation Ana I had to love someone I never imagined I would care about at all

03:30:49 and once you have connected to that other suddenly every other other gets very interesting to me and in that way all the different consciousnesses that you carry become fascinating to you so as you go along you you start having all these sidebar experiences and I never heard it more clearly than when I went to visit um an yaf that Y and and people close to Y had

03:31:21 this very view of the types um I went to see an after I this ordinary extra feeling auxilary uh she was she was blind at that point she was 90 years old and u i was terribly concerned with my inferior function being sensation about being late so of course I arrived uh an hour early and was pacing outside the street and then find of the apartment building finally the Swiss superintendent of the building couldn't stand any long he said

03:31:51 are you looking for someone and I said yes I have an appointment with Fia at 11:00 please please don't um uh please don't interrupt her oh no she won't mind be buzzed me 10 minutes early so I'm going to horribly horribly embarrassed and so she comes in she can't see me I knew that she's living alone she's blind and she feels my face and she says oh very nice and she says would would you like um would you like

03:32:24 um uh some tea or coffee coffee tea I I have herbal tea I regular tea and so I said I'll have some herbal tea and and so for this visitor from California this blind 9-year-old woman went and found the tea bag with the herbal tea and brought it back to me and as she put it back put a couple of chocolate chip cookies on the saucer and she said um it isn't much she said it's your punishment for being

03:32:57 early so of course we got close and and and I asked her a bit about herself and I asked her about her type and she said well you know when I was younger I was always introverted intuitive but now I'm blind and I have to feel my way around so I'm a sensation and I think we could leave it [Applause]

03:33:39 there a good one just a reminder that we have an hour and a half for lunch come back at 2:00 name

03:34:24 oh yeah good [Music] just for

03:35:44 know e

03:36:24 where you to go